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Che Guevara Took A Lot of Pleasure in Killing

Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:41 AM EDT
politics, monster, communist, marxism, marxist, che-guevara, useful-idiots, ernesto-guevara, cold-blooded-killer
By Bodhi1
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Che Guevara is an icon, but those who idolize him, idolize a lie, a myth. Che was not a "freedom fighter." He was a killer who enjoyed killing. He was, after all, Fidel Castro's executioner.

How many people Che executed is debatable. As Humberto Fontova, author of Exposing the Real Che Guevara and the Useful Idiots Who Idolize Him, writes:

A Cuban prosecutor of the time who quickly defected in horror and disgust named Jose Vilasuso estimates that Che signed 400 death warrants the first few months of his command in La Cabana. A Basque priest named Iaki de Aspiazu, who was often on hand to perform confessions and last rites, says Che personally ordered 700 executions by firing squad during the period. Cuban journalist Luis Ortega, who knew Che as early as 1954, writes in his book Yo Soy El Che! that Guevara sent 1,897 men to the firing squad.

In his book Che Guevara: A Biography, Daniel James writes that Che himself admitted to ordering "several thousand" executions during the first year of the Castro regime. Felix Rodriguez, the Cuban-American CIA operative who helped track him down in Bolivia and was the last person to question him, says that Che during his final talk, admitted to "a couple thousand" executions. But he shrugged them off as all being of "imperialist spies and CIA agents.

Why did Che kill so many?

Power. Simple power.

Guevara had witnessed the overthrow of Jacobo Arbenz, and felt that Arbenz would still be in power if he had only killed more people. He did not want the same result in Cuba, so executions were the rule.

Che would often execute people without so much as a trial. Fontova relates Che being confronted for his behavior, and Che's response:

Che ordered 27 Batista soldiers executed as "war criminals." Dr. Serafin Ruiz was a Castro operative in Santa Clara at the time, but apparently an essentially decent one. "But Comandante" he responded to Che's order. "Our revolution promises not to execute without trials, without proof. How can we just....?"

"Look Serafin" Che snorted back. "If your bourgeois prejudices won't allow you to carry out my orders, fine. Go ahead and try them tomorrow morning--but execute them NOW!"

The Batista soldiers would get a trial, after facing Che's firing squad. Che often liked to finish the job with a .45 at five paces, shattering the skull of the condemned. And he liked killing.

Prior to the revolution in Cuba, and shortly after landing in Cuba with Fidel and Raul Castro, Che wrote his wife. In the letter, he said, ""I'm here in Cuba's hills, alive and thirsting for blood." Another account has the wording a little different, with Che writing, ""Here in the Cuban jungle, alive and bloodthirsty."

The sentiment is the same. Che was looking forward to killing.

Fontova described the first time Che killed for Fidel:

Fidel Castro ordered the execution of a peasant guerrilla named Eutimio Guerra who he accused of being an informer for Batista's forces. Castro assigned the killing to his own bodyguard, Universo Sanchez. To everyone's surprise, Che Guevara -- a lowly rebel soldier/medic at the time (not yet a comandante -- volunteered to accompany Sanchez and another soldier to the execution site. The Cuban rebels were glum as they walked slowly down the trail in a torrential thunderstorm. Finally the little group stopped in a clearing.

Sanchez was hesitant, looking around, perhaps looking for an excuse to postpone or call off the execution. Dozens would follow, but this was the first execution of a Castro rebel by Castro's rebels. Suddenly without warning Che stepped up and fired his pistol into Guerra's temple. "He went into convulsions for a while and was finally still. Now his belongings were mine." Che wrote in his Diaries.

Shortly afterwards, Che's father in Buenos Aires received a letter from his prodigal son. "I'd like to confess, papa', at that moment I discovered that I really like killing."

His enjoyment of murder is illustrated by his remodeling of his office at La Cabana. If Che couldn't be five paces away, he still wanted to watch. He had a wall removed that overlooked the area where executions were carried out.

He also loved to make the condemned families watch the executions. For example, a mother lobbied Che for mercy on her young son. Che responded by picking up the phone. He ordered the execution to be carried out immediately. He had this mother watch her son executed, so she could stop worrying about her son.

In 1997, Pierre San Martin, a Cuban who was jailed by Che, recalled an incident that happened in 1959. A 12-14 year old boy, beaten and bloody, had been thrown into the cell with him. The boy said he was there for simply defending his father. The boy was trying to keep his father from being executed. He failed.

Later, the guards came for the boy:

Near the wall where they conducted the executions, with his hands on his waist, paced from side to side the abominable Che Guevera.

He gave the order to bring the boy first and he ordered him to kneel in front of the wall. We all screamed for them not to commit this crime and we offered ourselves in his place. The boy disobeyed the order with a courage that words can't express and responded to this infamous character: "If you're going to kill me you're going to have to do it the way you kill a man, standing, not like a coward, kneeling.

Walking behind the boy, the Che said "whereupon you are a brave lad..." He unholstered his pistol and shot him in the nape of the neck so that he almost decapitated him.

There are so many stories to tell about Che that illustrate his joy of killing. Yet the myth continues. The useful idiots who wear the Che t-shirts, like Carlos Santana or Johnny Depp, believe the myth, and continue the lie.

Che was not a freedom fighter or a revolutionary. He was a killer who enjoyed killing.

He was a monster on the scale of Hitler, Pol Pot and Stalin.

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  • Public Discussion (145)
Bodhi1

Getting some rest now. Look forward to reading your comments this afternoon.

  • 11 votes
Reply#1 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:42 AM EDT
TacitusAndronicus

Man, what a piece..and this succinct, yet deeply researched analysis is intriguing:

"Why did Che kill so many? Power. Simple power. "

Indeed! And who can argue with that?

  • 6 votes
#1.1 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:49 PM EDT
Reply
DAWeb

Bodhi1, Thanks for yet another well researched and sourced article. It is amazing to me the reaction you get from some when you merely tell the truth about a man like Che Guevara. He was an evil man that is being worshiped all too often.

  • 16 votes
Reply#2 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:08 AM EDT
krishna-167929

It is amazing to me the reaction you get from some when you merely tell the truth about a man like Che Guevara.

Some people make ideological dogma more important than truth.

  • 16 votes
#2.1 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:13 AM EDT
vannevar

Thanks for yet another well researched and sourced article.

Surely you're joking. Che Guevara may indeed have been evil, but there is no credible support for that contention in this article. It cites only two sources, both of dubious objectivity. One hardly expects an unbiased account from a book titled 'Exposing the Real Che Guevara and the Useful Idiots Who Idolize Him.' The other source is a random website purporting to be reprinting a newspaper article.

While this may pass for research on an entertainment network like Fox News, it wouldn't even be acceptable in a high school journalism class.

  • 16 votes
#2.2 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:29 AM EDT
Bodhi1

It cites only two sources, both of dubious objectivity.

There is a reason for citing so few sources. If I could have done it, I would have reference work solely by Humberto Fontova. Actually, I learned of the newspaper article through an article of Fontova's, so in a way, I did.

But there is a reason for that, one that the CoH prohibits me from disclosing.

(Mysterious enough for you.)

  • 9 votes
#2.3 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:08 PM EDT
tschreck

Some people make ideological dogma more important than truth

wow there is more than just a little irony dripping from that statement.

  • 5 votes
#2.4 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:27 PM EDT
determined0a1

van
Are you a Cuban that can deny that even the close friends of Castro and Che finished their lives in "accidents", jail or in Miami?

This is the real tragedy of the Cuban situation, our families that were divided and also this is why I can't stand the cult to the personality.

  • 6 votes
#2.5 - Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:55 AM EDT
Reply
JG.

but, but, but...Rage Against the Machine sold me a t-shirt with his picture on it!

  • 9 votes
Reply#3 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:30 AM EDT
Bodhi1

Another quote from Humberto Fontova, author of Exposing the Real Che Guevara and the Useful Idiots Who Idolize Him:

In a famous speech in 1961, Che Guevara denounced the very "spirit of rebellion" as "reprehensible."

"Youth must refrain from ungrateful questioning of governmental mandates" commanded Guevara. "Instead, they must dedicate themselves to study, work, and military service." And woe to those youths "who stayed up late at might and thus reported to work [government forced-labor] tardily."

"Youth," wrote Guevara, "should learn to think and act as a mass." "Those who chose their own path" [as in growing long hair and listening to Yankee-imperialist Rock & Roll] were denounced as worthless "lumpen" and "delinquents." In his famous speech Che Guevara even vowed, "to make individualism disappear from Cuba! It is criminal to think of individuals!"

Tens of thousands of Cuban youths learned that Che Guevara's admonitions were more than idle bombast. In Che Guevara the hundreds of Soviet KGB and East German STASI "consultants" who flooded Cuba in the early '60s, found an extremely eager acolyte. By the mid '60s the crime of a "rocker" lifestyle or effeminate behavior got thousands of youths yanked off Cuba's streets and parks by secret police and dumped in prison camps with "Work Will Make Men Out of You" in bold letters above the gate (the one at Auchwitz read "Work Will Set You Free")and with machine gunners posted on the watchtowers.

The initials for these camps were UMAP, not GULAG, but the conditions were identical.

Che would have thrown Rage Against the Machine in a forced labor camp, for re-education.

  • 15 votes
#3.1 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:45 PM EDT
Reply
Dennis P. McCannDeleted
kungtotte

While I won't comment on what Che did or did not find pleasurable, I can attest to the fact that there are people who idolize him. The communist youth party here in Sweden seems to have an unofficial uniform of keffiyeh, military fatigues and t-shirts/shoes with the iconic Che Guevara photo on them, and their stance is more or less that Che was a hero for the cause and could do nothing wrong even if he put his mind to it.

  • 5 votes
Reply#5 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:57 AM EDT
Dennis P. McCannDeleted
kungtotte

Which is kinda the point of this column :)

  • 11 votes
#5.2 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:51 AM EDT
krishna-167929

, he's become a symbol of the militant far left,

Yes-- in fact-- a lot of them ''idolize'' him.

  • 13 votes
#5.3 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:42 AM EDT
Dennis P. McCannDeleted
cpg

Even beyond that, the iconic t-shirt image is also beautifully designed. That will attract people who know nothing of the situation just because it looks good. To many, maybe most, it's a cultural symbol at this point, not a political one.

  • 4 votes
#5.5 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:09 PM EDT
bluejohnnyd

Well, it's a cool picture, too.

  • 1 vote
#5.6 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:23 PM EDT
Bodhi1

Yeah, he's become a symbol of the militant far left, used mostly by people who don't know a damn thing about him.

Militant far left?

Johnny Depp?

Carlos Santana?

Angelina Jolie has a Che tat, allegedly. Jesse Jackson shouted Long Live Cuba! Long Live the United States! Long Live President Castro! Long live Martin Luther King, Jr. Long live Che Guevara!"

This is bigger than the far left.

It's like people walking around with Hitler t-shirts. But it looks really kewl.

  • 12 votes
#5.7 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:31 PM EDT
Dennis P. McCannDeleted
Bodhi1

A lot of capitalists are making money off his image. How's that for ironic?

  • 13 votes
#5.9 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:47 PM EDT
Dennis P. McCannDeleted
determined0a1

Yeah, he's become a symbol of the militant far left, used mostly by people who don't know a damn thing about him.

Ignorance is a bliss, Mr. McCann. "Sweet speeches" of "Change" gives me the all over again.

It's for me sad and laughable that here ysota said that we "lost" our freedom, that we are under a dictatorship, etc., etc. They know 0 - zilch - Nada.

  • 5 votes
#5.11 - Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:03 AM EDT
sirmonkey

#5.8: Well, he's also a fashion accessory.

Indeed for some it may just be a fashion statement, along with other (ignorant) apparel as indicated in this clever cartoon!

More from 2008 PULITZER PRIZE WINNER, MICHAEL RAMIREZ (RSS).

  • 1 vote
#5.12 - Thu May 29, 2008 12:04 AM EDT
Reply
Mykola Bilokonsky

I dunno, I kinda find him really interesting. In his writings it's obvious that he was a man not fit for peacetime - he was a Warrior, and he had a cause that I think a lot of people would call just. Sure, he was monstrous - a lot of men become animals when they dedicate their lives to war.

Here was a man who said that if he'd been in charge instead of Castro during the Cuban Missile Crisis he would have ordered the nuclear strike without hesitation. That's pretty hard-core. He said he wanted to inflame the world in a thousand small Vietnams to drain the resources of the united states.

But that doesn't mean that his cause was wrong, that the bolivarian movement in south america is wrong, that equality and peace are wrong. To equate an imperfect picture of the personality of one leader within a movement, without context, to the movement itself - well, that's just fallacious reasoning.

But I do agree that we all need to be aware of the bad with the good - to see all of our heroes as flawed and all of our villains as human.

Bodhi, would you do less in defense of your family and everything you believed in, if you thought it was necessary and just?

  • 12 votes
Reply#6 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:59 AM EDT
cpg

Don't know if I agree but well-said.

    #6.1 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:18 PM EDT
    Bodhi1

    Here was a man who said that if he'd been in charge instead of Castro during the Cuban Missile Crisis he would have ordered the nuclear strike without hesitation. That's pretty hard-core. He said he wanted to inflame the world in a thousand small Vietnams to drain the resources of the united states.

    But that doesn't mean that his cause was wrong

    How very Machiavellian of you.

    So if my cause is right, I can do whatever I want, including nuking a city of millions and creating worldwide war? Or at least have those wishes disregarded because my cause was right?

    Bodhi, would you do less in defense of your family and everything you believed in, if you thought it was necessary and just?

    Would I order the killing homosexuals for being homosexuals? No.

    Would I order the killing blacks for being blacks? No.

    Would I parade a family out to see their sons, brothers, uncles or fathers, as they was being shot? No.

    But Che did all of these things frequently.

    How is that "necessary and just?"

    • 9 votes
    #6.2 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:40 PM EDT
    Dennis P. McCannDeleted
    Bodhi1Deleted
    Bodhi1

    Dennis, certainly you don't equate the two? Che would have nuked New York, starting a world wide nuclear holocaust. We bombed Japan during a prolonged war that was killing hundreds of thousands.

    They just are not the same.

    • 11 votes
    #6.5 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:02 PM EDT
    Mykola Bilokonsky

    So if my cause is right, I can do whatever I want, including nuking a city of millions and creating worldwide war? Or at least have those wishes disregarded because my cause was right?

    No, but you surely understand that you're misrepresenting me.

    If, for instance, you nuked a city in the name of world peace, we could have a discussion. Just because your means were reprehensible doesn't mean that the goal of world peace is bad.

    Of course I don't agree with genocide/murder/nuclear holocaust. But it's important to note that his actions were geared towards fighting against an economic hegemony that had destroyed his entire hemisphere.

    Would I order the killing homosexuals for being homosexuals? No.

    Would I order the killing blacks for being blacks? No.

    Would I parade a family out to see their sons, brothers, uncles or fathers, as they was being shot? No.

    But Che did all of these things frequently.

    How is that "necessary and just?"

    It's not. What I'm saying is that Che did what he did for a combination of personal reasons and ideological passion. Your article doesn't leave grounds to understand why some people would treat him as a martyr even in spite of his atrocities - there's something romantic and compelling about someone who is willing to discard his very humanity in pursuit of a better world.

    I just feel that it would make your position stronger if you took that into consideration, rather than dismissing him as a one-dimensional nutjob. Your overall article would be a lot stronger.

    • 7 votes
    #6.6 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:21 PM EDT
    Mykola Bilokonsky

    Dennis, certainly you don't equate the two? Che would have nuked New York, starting a world wide nuclear holocaust. We bombed Japan during a prolonged war that was killing hundreds of thousands.

    They just are not the same.

    What you simply refuse to understand is that to Che's eyes the American economic system is killing millions. Hell, he lived before the worst of it. The US Corporate practices in south america (read Confessions of an Economic Hitman, read Zinn, read Chomsky even if you disagree with them - they still present facts) have demolished that part of the world.

    The illiteracy, poor sanitation, starvation and generally misery taken as a normal standard of living for these people leads to countless deaths. So don't start saying that WWII and the economic warfare of the post-war era are incomparable, because if that's true it's to the detriment of your argument.

    • 7 votes
    #6.7 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:25 PM EDT
    A. H. Min

    Are you talking about Hiroshima or Nagasaki?

    I'm not going to get into this Che argument, but I will jump in on this. The reason we bombed those two cities was to save ourselves from a Normandy Part 2, which would have killed many Japanese AND Americans. The Japanese didn't like surrender. They would commit suicide rather than surrender. Hence the popularity of the kamikaze, the first suicide bombers. This was the quicker, less bloody way. At least we thought, since we really didn't know how powerful it was.

    • 7 votes
    #6.8 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:35 PM EDT
    Dennis P. McCannDeleted
    Mykola Bilokonsky

    Note that that's not my argument - my argument is that just because your action is wrong doesn't mean your cause is wrong.

    • 4 votes
    #6.10 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:59 PM EDT
    locus
    So if my cause is right, I can do whatever I want, including nuking a city of millions

    The answer, apparently, is yes, as illustrated by the fact that we did.

    Well when you say "we" I think you can count me out. In fact it was my great-grandparents generation that pulled the trigger on the bombing of Japan. But I suppose you mean "we" Americans nuked a city of millions. You fail to mention that we did it to end a very bloody war, or that we have apologized to the nation of Japan, poured money into the Japanese ever since.

    If you call the cause of Che Guevara and Fidel Castro a cause that is right, you've got some serious denial problems. Cubans don't risk their lives to get the hell out of Cuba because they feel guilty for living such a sweet life... they leave because they live in an oppressive communist society ruled by men who kill with out remorse.

    • 6 votes
    #6.11 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:01 PM EDT
    wmolaw

    I just had to laugh at this.

    t's not. What I'm saying is that Che did what he did for a combination of personal reasons and ideological passion. Your article doesn't leave grounds to understand why some people would treat him as a martyr even in spite of his atrocities - there's something romantic and compelling about someone who is willing to discard his very humanity in pursuit of a better world.

    Mykola, you have to be kidding me. Do you really believe that it is "romantic and compelling" that a man would become an animal in "pursuit of a better world" (read his type of world).

    That's just strange. I suppose you think Jeffrey Daumer is "romantic and compelling" because he was trying to change the dietary habits of himself and others?

    • 5 votes
    #6.12 - Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:41 PM EDT
    TacitusAndronicus

    Right wmolaw,

    From Aldous Huxley: The end cannot justify the means for the simple and obvious reason that the means employed determine the nature of the ends produced.

    • 2 votes
    #6.13 - Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:09 PM EDT
    Reply
    Redruby

    Bah.

    • 13 votes
    Reply#7 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:19 PM EDT
    Bodhi1

    I don't know if I'm more confused about the fact you took the time to write and post that comment, or that four people have voted for it.

    • 10 votes
    #7.1 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:41 PM EDT
    Reply
    Calvin Tang

    This headline is a COH4 violation. Please edit it accordingly. When this is done, shoot me an email and if the new headline is acceptable, I'll let this live outside of your column again.

    Thank you.

    • 8 votes
    #8 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:24 PM EDT
    DAWeb

    Wow Calvin, I have to say I am shocked by this. I am not sure how it is a CoH violation. As pointed out here it is actually an accurate headline.

    • 7 votes
    #8.1 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:34 PM EDT
    locus

    The headline is accurate. It is also a good title for the article.

    To label that title sensational would be setting a pretty awkward standard for titles.

    • 6 votes
    #8.2 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:51 PM EDT
    Bodhi1

    You can't be serious.

    This is just from Killfile:

    • Original Headline: Repairs help rebuild LAPD's image when wrong door broken down

      Killfile Headline: The LAPD's "Wrong Door" Unit: Fixing SWAT Screw Ups To Cover The County's Ass

    • Original Headline: Does This Make George H.W. Bush Unpatriotic?

      Killfile Headline: Apparently George HW Bush Is Also Unpatriotic -- Thinks "Cupping His Ass" Is Appropriate During Pledge of Allegiance

    • Original Headline: Police Swabbing Mouths During Traffic Stops In Serial Killer Hunt

      Killfile Headline: Welcome To Gattaca. Police in Daytona Beach Are Taking DNA Samples At Traffic Stops In Search of a Serial Killer

    • Original Headline: FOX News Poll: Obama Has Slim Edge Over McCain, Half Would Never Vote for Clinton

      Killfile Headline: FOX News Just Wanted To Let You Know That It *Thinks* That Osama Bin Laden Is "Rooting" For Obama.

    • Original Headline: Evolution vs creation row ends in stabbing

      Killfile Headline: Probably Not What Jesus Would Do: Creationist Stabs, Kills Evolutionist After Heated Debate

    I didn't see you on any of these threads talking about CoH4. Why is that?

    Keep your headlines accurate and free of sensationalistic language. For instance, if you're writing a satirical piece, please follow the form: "Satire: [Headline]"; if you're seeding a story about a rumor, "Rumor: Yahoo to Buy ___" is appropriate whereas "Yahoo Buys ___" or "WTF! Oh my God!" are not.

    The headline is accurate, and free of sensationalistic language.

    • 10 votes
    #8.3 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:36 PM EDT
    locus

    What exactly did Bodhi do that was in violation of the CoH4? Because this looks pretty arbitrary to me.

    I call bull@!$%# on this apparent double standard.

    • 9 votes
    #8.4 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:43 PM EDT
    Calvin Tang

    A headline can be both accurate and also not a good headline (sensationalistic, etc.). For example, there's a clear difference between these two headlines:

    "Bush Is A @!$%#ing Idiot For Invading Iraq"

    And,

    "An Analysis of Bush Administration Foreign Policy"

    It can be argued that both are accurate, but one is a COH violation and the other is not*.

    Attention-grabbing headlines that are designed to provoke argument and flame wars are something that have been growing in number around Newsvine. There will be a general crackdown on these practices until we reach a point where Newsviners understand what a good, professional headline looks like. And then, we will maintain enforcement of the COH in that and every other regard.

    One line of argument that you might as well forget is, "this other person is doing it [link], so I can too".

    You can argue that way as much as you like, but my decision is made and this article will live on your column *only* until I see fit to change it. Other COH4 violations involving bad headlines should be reported.

    IF there were no alternatives (i.e., there existed no other possible combination of words that would orient the reader to the nature of this article), then I would be more likely to let it go. But, there *are* alternatives that are both accurate and non-sensationalistic - so be creative and choose one. (if I get a snarky revision, I will de-track and the conversation will be over).

    *The Bush headline example I used above was repurposed from another communication I had earlier today with a user who, let's just say he leans toward the opposite aisle, I have been just as unbending toward with regard to an unacceptable headline I see as designed to provoke conflict with conservative Newsvine users.

    • 7 votes
    #8.5 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:58 PM EDT
    tschreck

    thank you for explaining this Calvin.

    it is a long standing habit of certain users to issue provocative headlines for no reason other than to incite others.

    thanks again for making it crystal clear.

    • 5 votes
    #8.6 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:07 PM EDT
    Calvin Tang

    No problem tschreck. You and I have had our disagreements when it comes to Newsvine policies, but I hope that you and others here know that it's nothing personal, and that I do my best to treat all people equally.

    Just as I wrote the comment above, I found that the other author I've had exchanges with today over a headline made an adjustment.... and problem solved :)

    • 4 votes
    #8.7 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:13 PM EDT
    locus

    thanks again for making it crystal clear

    I don't think you've made it clear what is wrong with this particular headline, Calvin, other than you just don't like it. The headline of this article is factual, and it isn't written in a sensational way, it simply states the fact. If he had written "Che Guevara Took A Lot of Pleasure in Killing - and he probably liked to eat babies too" ... that would be sensational.

    When Che is quoted as saying he enjoyed killing, using that for a headline is not sensational. It is a good and factual description of the contents of the article.

    Your decision will stand because you have the power to make it stand, just like Che Guevara had the power to enjoy shooting helpless people in the head while making their families watch. But having the power to do something that is wrong doesn't make it right. And in this case you are so very wrong that I can't help but think you have a personal bias.

    • 7 votes
    #8.8 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:27 PM EDT
    locus

    The scammers responsible for Airborne are forced to cough up $23.3 million

    For McCain, Self-Confidence on Ethics Poses Its Own Risk - New York Times

    These headlines found on Calvin's own column are just as much a violation of the CoH as Bodhi's title on this story.

    tschreck, who seems pretty pleased with Calvin's decision has these headlines on his column...

    Yet another reason to can Mitt, Once again he flip flops, this time on mileage standards

    We Don't Need Another "Idiot in Chief"

    Should Bush be allowed to choose which laws he has to obey?

    Absolute bull@!$%#.

    You might as well ban me now.

    • 7 votes
    #8.9 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:38 PM EDT
    locus

    Redruby who made a great contribution by saying "bah" to this article, has this in his column...

    Moses was high on drugs: Israeli researcher

    Fire Causes Steel Structure Collapse; 9/11 Conspiracy Enthusiasts Run Back to Drawing Board

    Noah Bradley Runs for President; World Cringes in Horror

    Hate Bush? You may have pent-up sexual tension

    Christians, and Those Who Call Themselves Such

    Never Hyphenate, or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Accept My Role in Society

    If you hold everyone to the same standards, you're going to be up all night chastising your newsvine authors.

    • 6 votes
    #8.10 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:49 PM EDT
    Donald Turnbull

    What a load of crap, I really don't see how Bodhi1 headline violates COH4. Maybe Newsvine's new masters are pulling the strings.

    • 10 votes
    #8.11 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:55 PM EDT
    Bodhi1

    I'm not changing the headline. This is a solid headline that is neither inaccurate or sensationalistic.

    You are in serious error, Calvin. I have illustrated where actual violations have occured. It is evident that you are allowing others to commit the very sin you accuse me of, yet say nothing to them publicly, as you have here.

    It is a blatant double standard.

    • 10 votes
    #8.12 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:56 PM EDT
    Jay Butler

    Calvin:

    I do not agree that this headline is a CoH violation. Regardless, Bodhi1 does have a point about Killfile's headlines. I look forward to seeing some of Killfile's many sensationalistic and inaccurate headlines improved.

    • 13 votes
    #8.13 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:57 PM EDT
    locus

    Here are more headlines that haven't been cited for violating the CoH.

    John McCain Courts the Radical Right Religious Vote

    McCain's 'spiritual adviser' escapes the scrutiny given to Obama's

    McCain's Spiritual Guide: Destroy Islam

    It's the 'Oh @!$%#!' Moment on Iran

    How the Muslims in Gaza React to the Murder of Defenseless Jewish Teenagers

    I Want You To Want Me, Or, Why I Don't Care If Spitzer Broke the Law

    The Menance to Your Rear End

    Gay Ex - Gov Claims Threesome Tryst

    What is Clinton hiding?

    Paranoid Democrats Vindicated At Last!

    Obama's Church Plays The Victim Card

    Barack Obama: Crook.

    Obama's Pastor: God Damn America, U.S. to Blame for 9/11

    • 8 votes
    #8.14 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:06 PM EDT
    Bill Harrison

    Absolutely nothing wrong with the headline and to suggest otherwise is, at best, historically obtuse. Guevara's sadistic enjoyment of personally executing political prisoners has been well-documented by various sources and the only people denying it today are mush-headedly ignorant undergraduates and the fossilized remains of the '60s radical left.

    Now if the headline were to read Just Another Fun-Loving Leftist: Che Guevara Took a Lot of Pleasure In Killing that would be sensationalistic flamery.

    Don't change the headline, Bodhi. And as others have noted, there's one Newsvine User who does consistently violate this COH precept and won't tolerate challenges to it on his thread. I think I've even seen him on television.

    • 12 votes
    #8.15 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:29 PM EDT
    tschreck

    locus-

    judging by your vines, you are a bit of a noob so i'll explain this to you..

    on my column, 2 of the 3 articles you cite are clipped.. not articles that i wrote.. the one that i did seed, was regarding mitt romney's flip flop on mileage standards is hardly an exaggeration..

    and your claim..

    When Che is quoted as saying he enjoyed killing, using that for a headline is not sensational. It is a good and factual description of the contents of the article

    you may want to review the high school english class where they talked about what belongs in quotes.. it is clear in the article that someone is describing something that someone else says he knows..

    in most circles, that is known as hearsay, and only in the most bizarre worlds do such things become facts as they are hardly provable.

    not many here would argue that che was not a douche bag, but when bodhi makes up "facts" and then presents it all as godspell in a headline, it plain and simple violates the spirit and letter of the COH.. as usual he chooses to try and incite a flame war in the comments to drive up the page hits and i for one am happy to see that the NV staff has finally had enough of it.

    • 4 votes
    #8.16 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:38 PM EDT
    DAWeb

    Calvin, you will note that I did not argue that others had more sensational headlines. I have been fairly good at reporting them instead. I still do not agree with you however on this headline. This is an opinion piece and the headline accurately reflects the content. If that is not what you think a headline is supposed to do then I would question your definition of a headline. I am not sure exactly why you feel that this headline is 'sensationalistic' or 'flamebait'. Perhaps if you were to explain that in some level of detail we could have a more meaningful discussion of this.

    In addition, I think it is VERY relevant to bring up other truly ridiculous headlines that exist here on NewsVine that DO exist outside of the users own column and are NOT being publicly called out. You could have emailed your request directly to Bodhi1, but for whatever reason you chose to make a public calling out of him in this case. I think it is perfectly fair for us the readers to ask why his and not some of these many many others.

    • 10 votes
    #8.17 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:44 PM EDT
    locus

    he chooses to try and incite a flame war in the comments

    Well thanks for that lecture on making up "facts". Only in the most bizarre worlds does your assertion that he "chooses to try and incite a flame war" become a fact, as it is hardly provable. You clearly have a bone to pick with Bodhi or you wouldn't be reading a column you obviously don't like. There are columns that I don't like, and you know what, I just don't read them. So if you're happy to see that the NV staff has "finally had enough" of it - you're just showing me that you'd rather silence a voice you don't like than to just ignore it. That's what Che did, and you refer to him as a "douche bag". So that would make you... exactly.

    • 4 votes
    #8.18 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:11 PM EDT
    locus

    Here is the quote from Che

    "I really like killing"

    Let me repeat that for any douche bags in the viewing audience...

    "I really like killing"

    Did I get my quotation marks right?

    • 5 votes
    #8.19 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:17 PM EDT
    Calvin Tang

    DAWeb has the most reasonable approach, and it mirrors in spirt what some of the others have stated, so I'll answer him.

    DAWeb, with headlines I typically do request that edits and/or modifications are made in public, so that participants in that discussion know why the headline was changed. Changing a headline can have an impact on a comment as a result of changing context. So, commenters should be informed about the request and should know if the headline is changed.

    I completely agree with you that ridiculous headlines are becoming too commonplace on Newsvine. And, I'll admit that Killfile - one of our best contributors - is someone who I have seen produce said attention-grabbing headlines. That's a separate topic that I will take up with him, but that also doesn't have any bearing on what happens here. If there's a specific headline you see, please use the ! button, but if it's a general pattern, then please write me privately about it.

    About describing specifically what makes this headline unacceptable, let's take a look at the COH, the headline and the tags used.

    Keep your headlines accurate and free of sensationalistic language.

    Headline: Che Guevara Took A Lot of Pleasure in Killing

    Now, when I examine what's going on here, I look at the whole picture. Is Bodhi trying to begin an intellectual discussion about atrocities carried out during wars and the (possibly bad) worship of one icon frequently appearing in pop culture? No, I don't think so.

    His headline is written to GRAB attention. What's an equivalent headline that orients the reader, but does not scream for attention? I'll take a stab at a few:

    "Pop-Culture Worship and Violence: Understanding Che Guevara"
    "An Examination of Blood-thirst and Misplaced Icon Worship"
    "Why A Known Killer Became So Popular"

    Then, taking a look at the tags and keeping in mind that the ability to tag is a privilege that should be used ONLY to help people find content, never to make a statement.

    Tags: politics --, communist --, monster --, marxism --, che-guevara --, marxist --, useful-idiots --, ernesto-guevara --, cold-blooded-killer --, +

    Tell me how it is useful, or how many people will search Newsvine using the keywords "cold-blooded-killer", "monster" and "useful-idiots". These are plain and simple ways for Bodhi to express his opinion of Che Guevara.

    I see what's going on here as one of Bodhi's problems in general. He approaches topics that have the potential to lead to fascinating, civil discussions, and he publishes articles in a tone and manner that do just the opposite - they act as a lightning rod for polarized arguments that too often lead to nothing but people insulting each other - rather than thinking and learning from one another.

    Sure, this isn't the worst example I could've picked, but it is an example of what we aim to curtail - by holding Newsviners to higher standards of professionalism and objectivism when writing articles - and especially headlines and tags.

    To locus, you stated:

    Absolute bull@!$%#.

    You might as well ban me now.

    Do you really want me to? I prefer it if you discuss this rationally, without getting angry and outraged, but if you want me to I will close your account. If you don't want me to, then spare me the martyr act.

    • 9 votes
    #8.20 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:24 PM EDT
    locus

    What a load of crap. You are being very subjective with your take on what Bodhi has written. You have made the assumption that his writing style is purposely inflammatory.

    Yeah, I'm angry and I'm outraged because I believe that you are very much wrong. There is no justification for allowing those other headlines with no confrontation while picking this particular one and making an issue of it.

    I'm not going to be a martyr, but I'm not going to stop arguing this because you are so very very wrong.

    • 4 votes
    #8.21 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:36 PM EDT
    tschreck

    locus-

    before you fall on your sword..

    Did I get my quotation marks right?

    i don't know .. did you?

    maybe if you could provide an accurate cite for the quote.. all i see now is some stuff that bodhi copied from some other guy who might as well have made it up.

    until then ..

      #8.22 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:38 PM EDT
      locusDeleted
      tschreck

      oops..

      too late it seems

      • 1 vote
      #8.24 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:45 PM EDT
      locusDeleted
      tschreck

      what ?

      no cite?

      it seems you have no answer other than an insult..

      nice..

      • 1 vote
      #8.26 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:02 PM EDT
      Bodhi1

      His headline is written to GRAB attention.

      Pardon me, Calvin, but what headline isn't? Do people write headlines in order to blend in? If so, why?
      Let's look at the advice of one of the pros in the industry:

      Copyblogger:

      Your headline is the first, and perhaps only, impression you make on a prospective reader. Without a headline or post title that turns a browser into a reader, the rest of your words may as well not even exist.
      But a headline can do more than simply grab attention. A great headline can also communicate a full message to its intended audience, and it absolutely must lure the reader into your body text.

      According to that, my headline is sound. The question is: Is it sensationalistic? According to the CoH, it is not.

      Is Bodhi trying to begin an intellectual discussion about atrocities carried out during wars and the (possibly bad) worship of one icon frequently appearing in pop culture? No, I don't think so.

      I don't write to start discussions. I write to inform the reader. The reader learns in this article that "Che Guevara Took A Lot of Pleasure in Killing." There are elements out there that will tell you that Che is some kind of hero. He isn't. He took pleasure in torturing his victims, and their families. This article is not to start a discussion, but to end a myth. Che is no hero.
      And worshipping him is not "possibly bad." It is either moronic or evidence of your own evil.

      He approaches topics that have the potential to lead to fascinating, civil discussions, and he publishes articles in a tone and manner that do just the opposite - they act as a lightning rod for polarized arguments that too often lead to nothing but people insulting each other - rather than thinking and learning from one another.

      When I sit down to write an article, I don't worry about whether or not people will end up insulting each other. I write in a manner that confronts the issue and demonstrates the facts. Some people have a hard time with facts, especially when they contradict their own beliefs. Those people allow their passion to control the debate. Rather than attacking an article that might "act as a lightning rod for polarized arguments that too often lead to nothing but people insulting each other," perhaps you should spend time confronting that behavior instead. I should not be asked to change my style because it might cause others to behave in a manner you don't approve of here.

      As far as the tags go, useful idiots is fitting:

      In political jargon, the term "useful idiot" was used to describe Soviet sympathizers in western countries and the alleged attitude of the Soviet government towards them. The implication was that the person in question was naïve, foolish, or in willful denial, and was being cynically used by the Soviet Union, or another Communist state.
      The term is now used more broadly to describe someone who is perceived to be manipulated by political movement, terrorist group, or hostile government, whether or not the group is Communist in nature.

      As for the others, I can accept your point, but this discussion doesn't really concern tags, now does it?

      • 7 votes
      #8.27 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:10 PM EDT
      Bodhi1

      it is clear in the article that someone is describing something that someone else says he knows..

      Actually ts, it is clear in the article that Che wrote those words to his father.

      Sanchez was hesitant, looking around, perhaps looking for an excuse to postpone or call off the execution. Dozens would follow, but this was the first execution of a Castro rebel by Castro's rebels. Suddenly without warning Che stepped up and fired his pistol into Guerra's temple. "He went into convulsions for a while and was finally still. Now his belongings were mine." Che wrote in his Diaries.
      Shortly afterwards, Che's father in Buenos Aires received a letter from his prodigal son. "I'd like to confess, papa', at that moment I discovered that I really like killing."

      It is referenced in the article as being quoted from:

      Marcos Bravo. La Otra Cara Del Che, Editorial Solar. Bogota, Colombia

      It was right there at the end of the article. You could have found it yourself, but I guess you had other things to do, eh?

      • 6 votes
      #8.28 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:23 PM EDT
      tschreck

      and there is actual evidence of this "letter"?? or did someone just say it was so?

      i saw a letter once that said the smoking man killed kennedy.

      does that make it true?

      • 3 votes
      #8.29 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:41 PM EDT
      locusDeleted
      tschreck

      locus-

      do you often take what others say at face value, blindly, without question?

      im just asking for a little evidence that might lead me to believe that bodhi has a real verifiable clue that he knows what pleases another person that he has never met..

      eh..

      • 2 votes
      #8.31 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:23 AM EDT
      locusDeleted
      tschreck

      funny thing is mr locus, you are the one choosing to ignore someone.. i made no such choice..so if that makes me a moron in your eyes, so be it, but i'm willing to bet that you cannot resist clicking that little box and looking to see how i responded..

      think for a few moments about what you are doing and how funny it really is.

      were you strong enough to not look? i doubt it

      :-)

      • 3 votes
      #8.33 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:49 AM EDT
      Redruby

      locus, when you're spewing headlines it might help if you were accurate. The headlines you attribute to me are just plain false. You did not find them on my column with the exception of one.

      • 3 votes
      #8.34 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:54 AM EDT
      locus

      You are correct Redruby. The first headline was yours, the others were not yours. I noticed that after it was too late to edit. I apologize for the my mistake.

      • 3 votes
      #8.35 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:01 AM EDT
      DAWeb

      Is Bodhi trying to begin an intellectual discussion about atrocities carried out during wars and the (possibly bad) worship of one icon frequently appearing in pop culture? No, I don't think so.
      His headline is written to GRAB attention.

      Actually I would argue here that he is doing both. His headline describes (accurately) what is found in his article and it also attracts attention, as a Headline should do. I think that locus gave a number of examples of how the headline could have been made sensationalized above.

      I appreciate your willingness to discuss and even to provide headlines you think would have been more appropriate. I still disagree with you however. You provided three and I think all of them have a problem. the first and the third are both headlines for a much larger article then what is being presented here. The would both be excellent articles and perhaps Bodhi1 will undertake writing one or more of them, but they are not really what this article is about. the middle suggestion is no less inflammatory (and maybe more so) then the current one. I think that if you are OK with that headline, you should be OK with the current headline. just my opinion mind you.

      I see what's going on here as one of Bodhi's problems in general. He approaches topics that have the potential to lead to fascinating, civil discussions, and he publishes articles in a tone and manner that do just the opposite - they act as a lightning rod for polarized arguments that too often lead to nothing but people insulting each other - rather than thinking and learning from one another.
      Sure, this isn't the worst example I could've picked, but it is an example of what we aim to curtail - by holding Newsviners to higher standards of professionalism and objectivism when writing articles - and especially headlines and tags.

      See, I would disagree with you here as well. Bodhi1 has shown his willingness to research and write about topics that are both controversial and current. If this is not what NewsVine is for then I will admit to being confused. Yes some of Bodhi1's articles do lead to name calling and ridiculous partisan bickering. Welcome to the real world tho. I mean seriously. So do some of the AP stories. it is a part of the reality of writing articles in the political arena. If NewsVine wants to stay away from controversial subjects that is fine, but please be clear about it. I don't think that is what they want mind you, but that is how this statement seems to come across. But there are far more controversial and inflammatory writers on board here at the 'vine and in my opinion Bodhi1 is an excellent example of the kind of writers and commenters you should be courting, not trying to rein in.

      Oh and I don't want to forget about your comment on Tags. Yes use of tags is a privilege. So is writing on NewsVine and so is having a writer like Bodhi1 contributing to your site.
      Cold-Blooded-Killer is a tag that is quite accurate. No problem to me there. if someone is searching via tags for cold blooded killers this is exactly something I would expect to come up.
      monster - this is debatable but yes, I think he is a monster and acceptable but yes it could be debated too. What do you think that people searching on the tag monsters is looking for? That is how I would determine to use it or not.
      useful-idiots This tag is a clear and accurate reference to a book used as a source in the article. Again, someone searching for content based on tags using the term useful-idiots certainly could be looking for this article. it is not an insult to other viners it is a real live reference and potential search term. Anyone that has read or heard about that book might choose to use it.
      Am I missing how tags are meant to be used? I mean they are used for search terms, correct? I guess outside of 'monster' I just don't see a problem. could you tell me what you think someone useing these terms would be looking for that this article would be so bad to have show up in the search results? That is what they are used for and in my opinion the tags were used well.

      • 6 votes
      #8.36 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:39 AM EDT
      Killfile

      I completely agree with you that ridiculous headlines are becoming too commonplace on Newsvine. And, I'll admit that Killfile - one of our best contributors - is someone who I have seen produce said attention-grabbing headlines. That's a separate topic that I will take up with him, but that also doesn't have any bearing on what happens here. If there's a specific headline you see, please use the ! button, but if it's a general pattern, then please write me privately about it.

      I do want to point out here that, in the course of my time here at Newsvine, I have always responded to staff requests to change headlines promptly and courtiously.

      I am always willing to discuss my headlines privately over email with any that might complain about them.

      I maintain that headlines should be engaging, interesting, and accurate -- that they should direct the reader and draw their attention.

      The headline as it exists now "Che Guevara Took A Lot of Pleasure In Killing" is not as I would phrase it. My only objection to is that I find it to be a statement of a rather one-sided view of history that I do not entirely agree with. As such I question its accuracy.

      That said, it is an accurate an uninflamitory protrayal of the article itself.

      Personally I'd do it like this: Che Guevara: "I really like killing"

      If anything, the line about Stalin and Hitler is what would raise alarms for me. The rest of the article and headline is iffy, but that is just way the hell out in right field.

      • 3 votes
      #8.37 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:49 AM EDT
      Calvin Tang

      I'll be in meetings most of the day, but let me chime in on what's going on here.

      locus, you are welcome to debate with tschreck but flinging insults and referencing bodily fluids isn't allowed (minimum age for using Newsvine is 13). I've removed some of your comments. If the pattern persists, your ability to comment will be restricted. The next step beyond that is banning, so I'd reel it back in now if I were you.

      Bodhi, this isn't Copyblogger.

      I don't write to start discussions. I write to inform the reader.

      Then why allow comments?

      Look, the point of this discussion is to inform you, and everyone else, that there will be a general crackdown on the use of attention-grabbing headlines. There are sites that welcome such headlines, Newsvine does not. Why? Because allowing or even encouraging this type of behavior only creates a competitive environment where each writer has to top the other to get the attention of readers. And, if you're going to have an attention-grabbing headline, you're much more likely to write an article to follow - that incites flame wars and other types of behavior that we do not want. This article, and others that are written by you, Killfile, tschreck, DAWeb and many others covers a topic that does indeed deserve to be explored and discussed. You are the host of this column and we require you to bring about civil discussions in every way possible if you're going to write articles and allow comments (actually, even if you're just going to write articles, you should take on the responsibility for the tone of that article).

      DAWeb, thank you for responding to me, again, civilly and with reason. About the tag cold-blooded-killer, I don't think that we need a Newsvine page for that. The next thing that will happen is people will start tagging articles and seeds about Bush to that page. Why? To make a statement. That isn't the purpose of tagging content, and readers would most likely search for 'che-guevara' anyway.

      Killfile, I just took a look at your column and I don't have any arguments about headlines at this time. And to his credit, he did comply with requests quickly and cordially - even if we did go on to discuss headlines and wording after the fact. Killfile's willingness to work with us is appreciated.

      I have to head off now, but I've asked Emily to tend to this thread in the meantime.

      • 3 votes
      #8.38 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:50 PM EDT
      DAWeb

      Because allowing or even encouraging this type of behavior only creates a competitive environment where each writer has to top the other to get the attention of readers

      which in turn leads to higher and higher quality...

      About the tag cold-blooded-killer, I don't think that we need a Newsvine page for that. The next thing that will happen is people will start tagging articles and seeds about Bush to that page. Why? To make a statement. That isn't the purpose of tagging content, and readers would most likely search for 'che-guevara' anyway.

      Yes, I do agree that this could happen, and when it does it would represent a misuse of the tagging system. eliminating it from correct use won't stop people from using the wrong tags on other articles.

      readers would most likely search for 'che-guevara' anyway.

      Not readers that are not aware of who Che really is.

      • 4 votes
      #8.39 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:08 PM EDT
      Bodhi1

      Bodhi, this isn't Copyblogger.

      So am I to understand your position to be that headlines are not used to get people's attention? Is that really your position? Because I think you are the only person in the world to hold that position. It is the sole purpose for a headline.

      Then why allow comments?

      Courtesy. If someone wants to comment on the article, they can. I don't write hoping to get people to behave badly.

      Look, the point of this discussion is to inform you, and everyone else, that there will be a general crackdown on the use of attention-grabbing headlines. There are sites that welcome such headlines, Newsvine does not. Why? Because allowing or even encouraging this type of behavior only creates a competitive environment where each writer has to top the other to get the attention of readers.

      You don't want writers to have to compete for readers? Are we all part of the collective now? Is this the first social media website based on socialism?

      There can be no competition. Individuality is not allowed. Everyone will have to conform. Violators will be punished.

      Life is competition. I have been competing against other writers on Newsvine since I started. Why do you have a "Leaderboard" if you don't want competition?

      The headline stands. I am not going to change it. Leave the article alone in my column if you must.

      • 4 votes
      #8.40 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:40 PM EDT
      Killfile

      You don't want writers to have to compete for readers? Are we all part of the collective now? Is this the first social media website based on socialism?

      Aaaaaaaand Bodhi jumps the shark.

      Seriously? Socialism? Really?

      You'll have to pardon my sarcasm, I just need something to cut through all this melodrama.

      • 4 votes
      #8.41 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:45 PM EDT
      Emily

      I think Calvin's point was this:

      Look, the point of this discussion is to inform you, and everyone else, that there will be a general crackdown on the use of attention-grabbing headlines.

      I'm just guessing from the words "the point of this discussion".

        #8.42 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:53 PM EDT
        DAWeb

        So Killfile, just how does this comment contribute to the dialogue here.

        • 4 votes
        #8.43 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:45 PM EDT
        DAWeb

        Emily, I don't think anyone here has a problem with NewsVine cracking down on sensationalist headlines at all. I for one (not the only one mind you) do not find this to be an example of such headlines. that seems to be the issue here.

        • 5 votes
        #8.44 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:53 PM EDT
        A. H. Min

        OK, how about this. Can we specifically lay out the exact guidelines for the headlines?

        • 6 votes
        #8.45 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:10 PM EDT
        Emily

        Hi DAWeb,

        You (and others) feel the headline is appropriate. Calvin does not. You have both voiced your opinion on the matter extensively. The article has not been deleted. It is posted to Bodhi's column.

        Moving forward, we all now know that there will be a general crackdown on headlines. As was mentioned previously, if you see a headline you don't think is appropriate, use the "!" button. If it's a consistent problem email Calvin or myself.

        • 1 vote
        #8.46 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:17 PM EDT
        A. H. Min

        But Emily, Che admitted that he liked killing:
        http://purelypolitical.newsvine.com/_news/2008/03/17/1371263-che-guevara-took-a-lot-of-pleasure-in-killing#c1588487

        Shortly afterwards, Che's father in Buenos Aires received a letter from his prodigal son. "I'd like to confess, papa', at that moment I discovered that I really like killing."

        What if Bodhi1 changed his headline to read "Che Guevara: I'd like to confess, papa, at that moment I discovered I really like killing"? Would that be legitimate? I mean, it's a quote from the actual article.

        • 5 votes
        #8.47 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:23 PM EDT
        Emily

        Andrew - there are some guidelines that address headlines in the revised COH.

          #8.48 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:33 PM EDT
          Bodhi1

          Why do you have a "Leaderboard" if you don't want competition?

          Hmmm?

          • 4 votes
          #8.49 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:33 PM EDT
          A. H. Min

          Emily, until then, could you outline them?

          • 4 votes
          #8.50 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:47 PM EDT
          Killfile

          So Killfile, just how does this [where "this" is my "jumps the shark" comment] comment contribute to the dialogue here.

          It calls a spade a spade and reminds everyone that we're not talking about

          a.) A stage of history set forth by Karl Marx that defines the broad sweep of all of human history.

          b.) A largely pejorative descriptor for government programs popularized during the Red Scare

          c.) A system of economic governance

          Yelling OMFG Socialism!!!!! isn't terribly helpful and it's just another pointless, baseless, and juvenile zinger that certain individuals on the political right like to break out when more contemporary bogeymen either don't work or lack applicability.

          And I'm reminding you of that.

          • 5 votes
          #8.51 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:52 PM EDT
          Killfile

          Also, you can link to another comment in a thread like this instead of like this. The first way means that I don't have to reload the whole damn page every time.

          For those of you who don't care to open the source to see the links....

          <a href="#c1592743">No Reload</a>

          <a href="http://purelypolitical.newsvine.com/YourStoryHere/#c1592743">Requires Reload</a>

          • 2 votes
          #8.52 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:55 PM EDT
          DAWeb

          doesn't this belong in the help section and not here?

          • 4 votes
          #8.53 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:23 PM EDT
          DAWeb

          It calls a spade a spade and reminds everyone that we're not talking about

          a.) A stage of history set forth by Karl Marx that defines the broad sweep of all of human history.

          b.) A largely pejorative descriptor for government programs popularized during the Red Scare

          c.) A system of economic governance

          Yelling OMFG Socialism!!!!! isn't terribly helpful and it's just another pointless, baseless, and juvenile zinger that certain individuals on the political right like to break out when more contemporary bogeymen either don't work or lack applicability.

          And I'm reminding you of that.

          A - I declare shenanigans on that claim (for those of you in Rio Linde that means Bull@!$%#)
          B - no, you were being argumentative and delivering a backhanded insult to Bodhi1. You don't like being called on it either. Oh well.

          • 4 votes
          #8.54 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:28 PM EDT
          Killfile

          A backhanded insult? I know what a backhanded compliment is. That's when I dish out an insult that's disguised as a compliment. Something like this

          Really DAWeb, I find you staggering ignorance and oblivious pig-headedness refreshing. It serves to remind this otherwise enlightened community of the overwhelming deficiencies afoot in the modern Republican party.

          A backhanded insult would, I suppose, be a compliment disguised as an insult.

          Has anyone every told you you're a pretty smart guy DAWeb? Huh? Have they? Answer me you patriotic and analytical son of a virtuous and well groomed woman! I find people like you inspiring... just inspiring.

          Though really that last one really depends on the tone of voice.

          In either case, I really have no idea what you're talking about.

          • 5 votes
          #8.55 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:01 PM EDT
          Calvin Tang

          The headline stands. I am not going to change it. Leave the article alone in my column if you must.

          Cool. /de-track'd

          • 3 votes
          #8.56 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:30 PM EDT
          DAWeb

          I really have no idea what you're talking about.

          I would hope you don't expect me to be surprised by that. Sorry if you can't keep up.

          • 3 votes
          #8.57 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:34 PM EDT
          ytmnd

          If you all weren't aware of the political bias of MSNBC's Newsvine before, you should be now.

          • 5 votes
          #8.58 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:03 PM EDT
          DAWeb

          ytmnd, I won't challenge your view of MSNBC at all. I tend to agree with it. I have found that newsvine admins do try very hard to be nonpartisan in their judgments. Even when I don't agree with them or with their decisions.

          • 4 votes
          #8.59 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:15 PM EDT
          Bill Harrison

          Killfile

          The headline as it exists now "Che Guevara Took A Lot of Pleasure In Killing" is not as I would phrase it. My only objection to is that I find it to be a statement of a rather one-sided view of history that I do not entirely agree with. As such I question its accuracy.

          Really, Killfile? Precisely what area of history did you major in at UVA? Have you even bothered to read Jon Lee Anderson's Che: A Revolutionary Life? Anderson had access to Soviet archives, Guevara's widow, Cuban records, etc. and even unearthed the evidence, so to speak, that led to the discovery of Guevara's burial place. Guevara's sadistic bent was so pronounced it even led Fidel to shunt him to the background eventually and pretty much throw him out of the country. IOW, you don't know what you're talking about.

          • 8 votes
          #8.60 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:42 PM EDT
          Killfile

          Precisely what area of history did you major in at UVA?

          Cold War Studies

          Have you even bothered to read Jon Lee Anderson's Che: A Revolutionary Life? Anderson had access to Soviet archives, Guevara's widow, Cuban records, etc. and even unearthed the evidence, so to speak, that led to the discovery of Guevara's burial place. Guevara's sadistic bent was so pronounced it even led Fidel to shunt him to the background eventually and pretty much throw him out of the country.

          I'm aware of the work and have referenced it and skimmed it from time to time though a cover-to-cover read has never been a priority for me. Guevara's role in various executions and the like is not something I would contest, but my understanding of Che is one of an appreciably less two-dimensional villain than Bodhi portrays here.

          IOW, you don't know what you're talking about.

          IOW I have a bachelors degree in History from the University of Virginia that focuses upon Cold War Studies and I know very well what I'm talking about. I'll thank you not to pretend otherwise.

          • 5 votes
          #8.61 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:23 PM EDT
          Bill Harrison

          Well last time I checked both Ernesto Guevara and Fidel Castro played rather large roles in the arc of Cold War history so I'm not sure what your point of contention is in the context of the focus of Bodhi's article which concerned the sadistic pathology of Guevara --a fact well-documented. Or are you contending simply that one has to break a lot of eggs to make a good commie omelet?

          • 6 votes
          #8.62 - Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:09 PM EDT
          Killfile

          I'm saying that Bodhi1 has portrayed a complex and deeply troubled figure in history as a two-dimensional James Bond style villain, a portrayal highlighted by that ridiculous "Hitler and Stalin" comment towards the end.

          Guevara did horrible things, he enjoyed - to some degree - the rush that came along with being able to do those things... and he was profoundly troubled by that enjoyment. To reduce him to a monster absent any of his humanity is historically inaccurate.

          As I frequently find myself telling Bodhi1: Well yes, but it's not as simple as that.

          • 4 votes
          #8.63 - Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:37 PM EDT
          Mykola Bilokonsky

          Let it go, Chris, nobody here is interested. The whole thing makes me kinda really sad. I'm detracking. It's sad that this sort of idiocy gets equal if not greater time, and it's disappointing to me that there are human beings with so little regard for reason. But there's nothing to be done - certainly not reasonable discourse, they're immune.

          Back to my general boycott of politics.

          • 2 votes
          #8.64 - Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:23 PM EDT
          DAWeb

          LOL, he was not evil. He was not bad. He was mis-understood, just a complex and deeply troubled figure.

          ROTFLMAO

          Thanks Killfile, I was having a crazy day and that surely helped.

          Myk [wave]

          • 8 votes
          #8.65 - Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:53 PM EDT
          Killfile

          And that, DAWeb, is the cowards way out. Yes, "cowards." What you're saying is small and submissive -- a surrender rather than the bold stand you imagine it to be.

          Cowardly.

          Because of Che was simply a monster. If Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, the Columbine Killers, and Cho... if Osama Bin Laden and Pinochet are simply "evil" -- irredeemably, inevitably, and unalterably so... then there is nothing we can do about evil.

          If we are willing to view the world as black and white, good and evil we surrender to the inevitability of evil in the world. We say that there is nothing we can do about it. We say that we must become it in order to be safe.

          And that isn't courage. It's cowardice.

          • 6 votes
          #8.66 - Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:42 PM EDT
          TacitusAndronicus

          Killfile, That is very well put.

          However, it is so much simpler to pigeonhole people. As an expedient it saves a lot of troublesome introspection. This is the root of the ancient practice of "scapegoating" where the sins of the tribe were place on a goat that was then driven out of the village to die a horrible death alone. The primitive function is alive and well in the world....generally speaking, the truer the believer, the heavier the load placed on that which does not fit...

          • 1 vote
          #8.67 - Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:39 PM EDT
          Bodhi1

          Guevara did horrible things, he enjoyed - to some degree - the rush that came along with being able to do those things... and he was profoundly troubled by that enjoyment. To reduce him to a monster absent any of his humanity is historically inaccurate.

          That's easy to say when it isn't your son he makes you watch get executed, while he laughs. Easy to say when it isn't your father he kills.

          That may be the most ridiculous statement you have ever posted here Killfile.

          • 6 votes
          #8.68 - Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:04 PM EDT
          tschreck

          That's easy to say when it isn't your son he makes you watch get executed, while he laughs. Easy to say when it isn't your father he kills.

          wow im sorry you have such a personal connection to che mr bodhi..

          • 3 votes
          #8.69 - Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:06 PM EDT
          DAWeb

          Cowardly

          It is about what I would expect from you Killfile. Name calling. LOL You call me cowardly, but I am not the one out there making excuses for a monster like Che G. That would be you. In fact, it sounds to me like you are also making excuses now for Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc. etc. Hope that works out for you.

          • 4 votes
          #8.70 - Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:22 PM EDT
          TacitusAndronicus

          Bodhi,

          My condolences on your loss. If I'd known Che had killed your son and father... but he left you alive. Alive, damnit! The time for vengeance is at hand.

          Seriously, though, compare and contrast what some families may be feeling toward Bush and Cheney right now

          • 2 votes
          #8.71 - Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:49 PM EDT
          Bodhi1

          ts,

          Trying for another vacation from the Vine?

          • 8 votes
          #8.72 - Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:50 PM EDT
          Killfile

          That's easy to say when it isn't your son he makes you watch get executed, while he laughs. Easy to say when it isn't your father he kills.

          That may be the most ridiculous statement you have ever posted here Killfile.

          It is about what I would expect from you Killfile. Name calling. LOL You call me cowardly, but I am not the one out there making excuses for a monster like Che G.

          Say what you will. This remains, however, the most difficult article I've ever written for Newsvine. I refuse to believe that evil is absolute in the world. Actions may be either good or evil, but I firmly believe that people can be redeemed.

          Given how much this crowd goes on about prayer in schools, persecution of Christians, and the like... I'd expect to see more sympathy for that point of view here.

          • 2 votes
          #8.73 - Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:14 PM EDT
          Bill Harrison

          Killfile, my advice to you is the same I'd give the man in the hole. Bodhi's article isn't about the Cuban revolution, the Batista regime or post-Colombian Spanish feudal practices in Latin or Central America. As I'm sure you are well aware Castro imprisoned and executed many of his former compadres from the campaign to overthrow Batista who were appalled at his and Guevara's plans to establish a Stalinist state in Cuba. One of the former was the father of a friend of mine at UVA, Jose Fernando Gonzalez. His father was a Fidelista lawyer who broke with Fidel. One night Castro's secret police came and put Fernando, his mother and siblings on a flight to Madrid. They would not see their father again for years. Guevara was a two-bit thug and murderer, compulsive womanizer and lover of the high life. He finally became too much of a liability for even Castro. There was nothing redeeming about him in the least except in the minds of those with no eyes to see the well-documented historical record in this regard like all those old fossilized fellow travelers who still insist that Alger Hiss wasn't a Soviet agent.

          • 5 votes
          #8.74 - Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:38 PM EDT
          Bodhi1

          Sorry if I don't approve of the community of useful idiots "redeeming" Che by rewriting history.

          There is evil in the world, Killfile. And it is absolute.

          • 6 votes
          #8.75 - Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:50 PM EDT
          tschreck

          im not the one who is seeming to claim that he has suffered personal losses at the hands of che..

          if you feel you have any power in such matters, please be my guest.

          otherwise perhaps you should heed your own tag line.

          • 2 votes
          #8.76 - Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:36 PM EDT
          TacitusAndronicus

          "There is evil in the world, Killfile. And it is absolute. "

          No it's not.

          • 1 vote
          #8.77 - Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:28 PM EDT
          DAWeb

          Well, TacitusAndronicus says it is not absolute so I guess it is not. LOL riiigghhht

          • 4 votes
          #8.78 - Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:34 PM EDT
          tschreckDeleted
          TacitusAndronicus

          tschreck,

          Not sure if this was meant to be a pesonal slam on my earlier comment or not..

          "the smaller the mind, the fewer possibilities it can entertain at one time. "

          However, If one is convinced that absolute evil exists then there's no question, the answer is available and it's simple. But if evil is not absolute then the existence of evil isn't questioned but the examination of what constitutes evil becomes somewhat more complex.

          • 2 votes
          #8.80 - Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:01 PM EDT
          tschreckDeleted
          DAWeb

          The world can be a place of many hues and it will still have both Black and White.

          • 4 votes
          #8.82 - Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:06 AM EDT
          TacitusAndronicus

          DAWeb,

          Agreed. Things being what they are, Black is at one end of the bell curve and White is at the other.

          A child recognizes the difference between Darth Vader and Obi-Wan-Kenobi. But only someone like Obi-Wan-Kenobi can understand the nuances of the entire spectrum....well, him, Mace Windu and maybe an advanced Paduan Learner...

          • 1 vote
          #8.83 - Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:48 PM EDT
          DAWeb

          So I stand by Bodhi1's comment. "there is evil in the world and it is absolute." Not all evil in the world is absolute but yes, it does exist. Seems to me like you are agreeing with him Star Wars references aside.

          on an aside, the Star Wars exhibit is at the Franklin Institute in Philadelphia and is very cool!

          • 3 votes
          #8.84 - Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:17 PM EDT
          determined0a1

          Mr. Tang/Emily.

          I read a lot of poster's tittles that I don't dare to even comment, and......I was born in Cuba.

          • 3 votes
          #8.85 - Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:50 PM EDT
          wmolaw

          All I can say is, WOW!

          First, to the person who dismissed "hearsay" as not worthy of consideration. Frankly, that is a position that shows ignorance of the law and of the evidence which, many times, is used to convict/hold liable litigants in court. And, remember, hearsay as an evidentiary issue has a much maligned history. Sure, there are some inherent unreliabilities in hearsay, but given the way life is conducted the fact is that hearsay is often the only evidence available.

          Which is why there are so many exceptions to the "hearsay rule" that they, effectively, swallow the rule whole.

          And, remember, "hearsay" is defined as "an out of court statement ..." and we are not discussing courts in this article, or the evidence to be presented in a court.

          Kill,

          UVA? Bah, humbug. Once it did away with Easters, the school went downhill.

          Calvin and Emily,

          A question. Does this cracking down on sensationalist titles also include when you seed an article and just copy the article? Clearly, many sites from which articles are seeded utilize very, very sensationalist headlines. In fact, not jumping on the bandwagon regarding Kill, but he just seeded one regarding McCain which I found very, very sensationalistic (and probably incorrect), but as it came directly from the article I decided, what the heck.

          Is there a policy regarding seeds in this manner?

          • 6 votes
          #8.86 - Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:07 PM EDT
          Killfile

          UVA? Bah, humbug. Once it did away with Easters, the school went downhill.

          Well I still found it to be a great school, but I can't argue with you about the Easters bit.

          • 1 vote
          #8.87 - Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:35 PM EDT
          wmolaw

          Kill:

          Yeah, I did too. Found my wife there, undergrad, law there. And we still own property outside of C'Ville, which I don't get to often enough.

          I was doing a bit tongue in cheek.

          And there is no arguing about the Easters bit, it was an incredible weekend.

          • 4 votes
          #8.88 - Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:25 PM EDT
          Calvin Tang

          Does this cracking down on sensationalist titles also include when you seed an article and just copy the article?

          Yes, since there are obviously a lot of bad headlines out on the web. People should remember that their columns are a representation of themselves. And, the information presented in the article should support the usage of the headline - which should orient and inform the reader.

          • 2 votes
          #8.89 - Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:25 PM EDT
          wmolaw

          Thanks for the information. You are correct, there are many, many bad headlines out there.

          • 3 votes
          #8.90 - Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:12 AM EDT
          Reply
          locus

          unbeleivable

          • 6 votes
          Reply#9 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:41 PM EDT
          backroads

          I marvel at those who manage to idolize that Guevara character.

          I've noticed the fraudulent headlines as well; they're nothing more than brazen attempts to distort and deceive.

          • 8 votes
          Reply#10 - Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:32 PM EDT
          Mykola Bilokonsky

          A lot of self-righteous rage in this thread and very little in the way of engagement with the earnest discussion I tried to start above. That's become par for the course in your column, Bodhi. For some reason I expect you to be better than that.

          • 2 votes
          Reply#11 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:34 AM EDT
          DAWeb

          And you have contributed to that self-righteousness with your own comment here Myky. you would appear to be trying to start a fight rather then trying to engage in a discussion. (yes, my own comment would fall into that same bucket but you annoyed me with this crap at the end of this column too)

          • 7 votes
          #11.1 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:45 AM EDT
          Mykola Bilokonsky

          Not trying to start a fight, DAWeb, just sort of confused. This isn't the first time I've made a good-faith effort to engage with the subject of one of Bodhi's articles. Hell, last time if I remember correctly you "Conservative Coalition" types put on your hoods and block-voted to collapse my comment. That was charming, yet here I am again because I can't believe anyone would go to the trouble of writing even slightly researched articles and be unwilling to discuss them outside of a narrow pre-defined context.

          It just seems like somewhere on the corner of offensive and silly that this mob would form in response to Calvin, saying "Yeah we are here to be productive and to discuss things and this isn't fair!" when, as is frequently the case, any genuine attempts to engage you are summarily ignored.

          I mean, come on. And what right do you have for getting annoyed? I'm the one spending time responding to this, and that leaves a certain responsibility for the author to engage with me rather than pointedly ignoring me to take pot-shots at straw men and admins.

          • 3 votes
          #11.2 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:46 AM EDT
          DAWeb

          Hell, last time if I remember correctly you "Conservative Coalition" types put on your hoods and block-voted to collapse my comment.

          This sounds like conjecture. Please dont' make accusations you can't back up.

          • 5 votes
          #11.3 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:30 PM EDT
          DAWeb

          what right do you have for getting annoyed?

          now that IS rich. LOL I now need your permission to have a right to be annoyed? Good luck with that one.

          that leaves a certain responsibility for the author to engage with me rather than pointedly ignoring me

          Really. Where do you find this responsibility? I mean I am not aware of this. I think if Bodhi1 (or anyone else for that matter) can choose themselves who to respond to and who to ignore.

          • 4 votes
          #11.4 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:33 PM EDT
          Reply
          magz

          bodhi,

          great article. now focus your sharp analysis on someone like, say, batista, or somoza. you know,
          for balanced coverage. it could go on and on and on and on...

          • 2 votes
          Reply#12 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:44 AM EDT
          Rob Ballew

          Bodhi1, Once again a great and well researched article. And as many in this alleged "Conservative Coalition" have said before I feel the title totally fits the story. I also do not see it as inflammatory. I am not going to blame Calvin or MSNBC. I think it is more some very grumpy Che' fans who have taken offense and sent enough mail/reports Calvin's way to get him to look at it. Some people on both sides of the fence can't handle people having an opposing view and like to use the system to try and get ahead. This article was well written, well researched and brought up some very good points.

          Now on to what I think about the article. In truth I don't know much about Che. But I must say this article has me wanting to look into what kind of person he really was. If he is as bad as what you have said than I wonder what people are thinking wearing shirts and touting him as a hero. But like I said I have to look into it before I make this judgment. Thanks for the insight I enjoyed the article.

          • 8 votes
          Reply#13 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:53 AM EDT
          tschreck

          Rob--

          one thing i'd like to clear up.. im no fan of che.. not in the slightest..

          what i object to is using "evidence" that is obviously from a very impassioned and obviously biased source to support "facts" that have a high likelihood of being made up to support an argument..

          then to base a headline on conjecture that is not well documented coupled with a very obvious attempt to agitate makes for an article that leaves little room for discussion and in the end, really just comes off as a lecture.

          i am happy that calvin and company are cracking down on inflammatory bs being passed off as fact (and that goes for both sides of the aisle) newsvine is rapidly becoming a billboard for far from center thinking and in that regard has become more like a venue for the cage match that in reality only amounts to little more than american gladiators with a wikipedia connection.

          i think that calvin hits the nail on the head in his comment above (8.20) and i agree that it can and should be applied evenly across the board. they have to start somewhere and as long as the future shows an even hand, newsvine might stand a chance to recover from what it has become.

          • 3 votes
          Reply#14 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:07 PM EDT
          NewBorn.Portugal

          AHAHAHAH... u all make me laugh. Che fighted for the rights of the "people"... When I mean people I mean the social class of the "people", the lower class ... Not u, that live well , have nice jobs, good mercedez, BMW , good houses.... lol... really... U think in a revolution u take the power, and then its everything allright hein??? lol... in a revolution u kill or u die... He just killed who would have killed the revolution if he turned his back... Who wrote those things talking about che is a murderer and stuff??? lol... I bet u all will say that Martin Luther King was a nazi if someone pay u good hein???? think about it... lol. I say facts, u say things that could be published in magazines and stuff, to blind week minds... U all are blinded by the media... WHat che would say if he knew many ppl was using his image?? i think he will be sad... Che was the kind of person that if u kneeled in front of him, he would get u up... For all of u that are Catholic remember,God was the first Communist... One day a revolution will come, in wich everybody will have the same chances to live a good life.... until then, i will follow the orders of El Commandante, and all the good men who fighted against the opression and tyrani of the capitalism, and ended up dead, because good men always get killed by the powerfull (Kenedi(???) , Martin Luther King, Che, Dalay Lama,Malcom X, among many others that have no name... HASTA LA VICTORIA,SIEMPRE

          • 1 vote
          Reply#15 - Fri Apr 3, 2009 10:46 PM EDT
          DAWeb

          LOL! Spoken (writen?) like a true newborn. Unfortunately not reasoned or thought out. Also not accurate, but oh well. Not a shocker either.

          • 3 votes
          #15.1 - Mon Apr 6, 2009 7:53 AM EDT
          Reply
          NewBorn.Portugal

          neather this article is accurate... The fact is, che represent the fight against oppression (for some reason) to millions.... "Spoken (writen?) like a true newborn", :) that doesnt affect me.... I believe that everybody should have the same rights... I just think its not fair that some people waste thousand of dollars in materialistic things, while others die of hunger and are homeless... This is my vision... Che´s vision... Power to the people... I think( and u should agree too) that we could be here "all day" discussing this matter, but in the end it wouldnt matter :) ... im still, and u too, thinking the same way ...

            Reply#16 - Wed Apr 8, 2009 10:18 PM EDT
            DAWeb

            you should learn how Newsvine works. Note how I was able to REPLY to you by selecting REPLY. If you are going to reply you should try it. You are saying nothing new here, you are merely repeating what you have been told by others. You should try doing your research before becoming a patsy for others.

            You say all should have the same rights yet you wish to limit what I can do with what I have because someone else does not have the same. Too bad.

            That as also never Che's vision. Che was all about getting for himself. Sorry if you don't like that tho.

            • 3 votes
            #16.1 - Thu Apr 9, 2009 8:05 AM EDT
            NewBorn.Portugal

            ok :) ...

            Rights, and oppurtunities, not only rights...

            My opinion is that you are saying what the others want u to say... The people who have power will do everything to try to stay in the power... U think the actual (I dont know how to say in english, but ill say this word, knowing that it is wrong, sorry for that) "regimes" of democracy or republic are ok? All i see is governements all over the world, controlling the Media and the Justice... When they do, democracy\republic ends... Im tired of "wars agains terrorism" while the real terrorrists are those in the power (I have nothing agains American People, I like Obama thought :) i think hes being an example for all politicians in the world, wish I had an Obama here in Portugal :) ) I dont wish to limit nothing to noone... I wish that everybodi has the same possibilities, and u gotta agree with me, because what I wish is not true nowadays... Everyday there`s more poverty, and less "elite" ... The money is flowing only to one side, and I only thinks that is not right... How can a guy like a football player for example, win 150.000 euros, while theres people working 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, winning 400euros (example here in Portugal) I just think its really not fair, everybody only think in himself, we betta start thinking as a team, being altruist and think more in the others... Im sorry if u think im wrong.

            Hmm, ok...What did che got to himself then?

              #16.2 - Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:30 AM EDT
              Jay Butler

              How can a guy like a football player for example, win 150.000 euros, while theres people working 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, winning 400euros (example here in Portugal)

              Because that player gets hundreds of thousands of 40 hour a week people to watch him on television, pay for tickets to the stadiums to attend games and buy the products that his sponsors sell. Could anyone who can kick a ball make 150,000 Euros? No. The player is not easily replaced because it takes a certainly amount of natural skill honed over the years by countless hours of (unpaid) practice.

              If you think that sports figures are overpaid, stop viewing, attending, and using anything with which they are associated. If enough do so, league revenues fall and the player salaries fall too.

              • 4 votes
              #16.3 - Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:51 PM EDT
              NewBorn.Portugal

              Im licenciated in Sports and physical Education. Ive practiced in competition 15 years of Gymnastic acrobastic, 2.30 hours a day, and iam actually playing Basketball... I "pay for play", I know what it costs to be commited to a Sport. Never received nothing from anione. Ill guive u an example... Here in Portugal, voleyball players, even the ones who win gold medals, cant live from voleyball... Other example: Imagine this, your "Skilled" player of 150000euros continues playing football.... the "Ordinary" lower class workers, stop working... What happends??? Not hard to figure out... Everione has special skills, everyone is needed, every individual is important in my point of view... But 15000???!!!! What if we distribute that money, to the ones that live on the street, Dont U ALL think thats a little too much????

              When u buy a new TV, and put the cardboard in the garbage... Someone would be happy to use it to sleep on the streets, while your skilled player still wins 15000

              I know im always saying the same things, and what i say is hard to hear, but unfortunatly its true.

              I know everything I say is Beautifull, but hard to be accomplished... like I said above, we gotta work like a team, and little by little, start to changing the world.

              P.S. I use to practice sport the following equipment;

              -Snickers(7 euros)

              -T-Shirt( offered, i think the value should be 1 euros)

              -knickers ( 10 euros)

              Apart from being a professional from Sport I dont go to the 150000 players matches, dont buy their stuff, dont watch their games in TV (Dont watch TV at all) .... I make my own clothes(stamping intervention images and stuff, in 2 euros T-shirts, except for jeans), the snickers I use , I bought them on local stores for 10 Euros...

              As you see im not just a "NewBorn", I do what I say, because I believe in it, I don´t do because anione told me so. If everybody did like me, maybe the world would be a little bit different.

              But in the end this is only my opinion ( the only one here I think)... Maybe u think im a madman, and I believe I will die before the day I dream comes...........

              • 1 vote
              #16.4 - Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:18 PM EDT
              Reply
              EllieP

              Sorry I've missed this article until now. I really miss Bohdi1's contributions here. The dialogue on this article explains a lot about the current state of NewsVine.

              • 8 votes
              Reply#17 - Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:40 PM EDT
              Arcturas

              The dialogue on this article explains a lot about the current state of NewsVine.

              Indeed!

              • 1 vote
              #17.1 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:33 PM EDT
              DAWeb

              you can always check Bodhi1 out over at www.allamericanblogger.com Or over at RFCRadio.com

              :-)

              • 2 votes
              #17.2 - Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:11 PM EDT
              Reply
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